Hello? Anybody Out There? - Let's Get Those Fingers Moving
I know you're out there - I can hear you breathing - or clicking. I've been writing entries for GDF for a LONG time now and I think I talk about some interesting, and relatively benign, topics in the graphic design and literary worlds. I also know that many of you read my posts - or at least skim through them or maybe look at the pictures. But, there's one thing that really bugs me that would make me feel like I'm getting something back - COMMENTS!
Maybe the comment function isn't working. Maybe there is simply nothing to be said after reading my thorough and investigative entries. Or, maybe you're all too busy to take the time to say, "Good job" or You're a loser" or even "Fuck off". All I ask for is a little communication so I can feel the love - or hate - as it may be.
So, I'm going to start a new and interactive program on my GDF blog. It's called "What would you do?", or WWYD.
I plan to set up mock scenarios that I've come up against or experienced in the graphic design world and pose the question of what you'd do in a similar situation. Would you be interested and willing to participate in that? It would be really good to get some dialog on the pressing issues of the day.
That being said, Situation Number 1 is this:
You've been freelancing, or otherwise doing some design work on the side, when a good friend or friend-of-the-family approaches you and wants a logo or business card designed for their new business. You know, it would be something like a massage business or a life coach.
They're really into it and just know that you could help them out because "you do such good work". They've never really worked with a graphic designer before, know it wouldn't take too much time, and "it would be really simple to do". They're more than willing to pay you for your work, of course, but don't know what you charge. "It can't be that much" since it's "such an easy job".
How would you handle this and what would you do?
Please post your comments below and let's get some action going on here. I can promise nothing but a good time - and maybe some interesting interaction.
For some graphic designers and in some scenarios, sure, the work's easy. But it really depends on the nature of the work and the experience/knowledge of the designer, doesn't it? The initial chunk of our sweat and tears is put into our background, like most every respectable and refined craft.
The Comments function must not be working because I sent TWO responses to one of your previous posts and my comments never got posted.
Great idea about creating the mock scenarios. I don't have a solution to this problem, but I am very eager to hear what people have to say. I am a freelance designer in a very small town and I encounter this very situation quite often.
In response to your question. I would handle a family member just as I would a regular customer. I tell them my hourly rate and what they get for that money. If they are serious about it, they will give me the job, otherwise (and this happens most of the time) they take their cheap butts over to their own computers and create some hellish design that they end up taking to kinko's!!
What can I say, everybody wants something for nothing!
First off - I would be very careful with working with friends - as you say, they don't know how much work goes into a design, much less how much its going to cost. Second: I wold start with a scale - wage vs. freelance. Can they afford the wages (i.e. minimum wage), and then the cost of materials involved plus possible printing. Write up an estimate - present the estimate and watch their eyes bulge out. Generally its more than they can afford and then they say: "Let me think about it." Its happened to me - and I never hear from them again, except when they want something. I'm not surprised they can't afford my work - its advertising and those of us who are in the field have many costs to consider. Operating our studios, rent, utilities, cost of our materials, computer and programs etc. Then there's our expertise - and experience. Can they afford that? Most likely not. One can lose friends this way. As I said at first, I would be very careful when working with friends. They could become just acquaintances.
What I do in this situation as a freelancer is quote them my hourly fee and then estimate how long I think the job would take just like I do for any other client. If the person has never worked with a graphic designer before you are helping to educate them about graphic design. These days everyone thinks they are a designer and don't understand why we charge for design. It's a business just like any other and if you devalue yourself so will clients.
Hi Mike,
Yeah, that no comments thing can be a pain huh. I think, as readers, we are often too easily distracted between reads to comment. But we really ought to make more of an effort to communicate rather than just read. It's all about the give and take right!
Anyways, to answer your conundrum: I'd explain how much the work would cost to an ordinary paying customer and how long it will take. Then depending on the job spec, my current schedule and who was asking, I'd offer to do the work for 'mates rates' (anywhere between free (as a strict one-off) and 75% of the cost) on the understanding that this was a favour only, not a standard should further work be required.
I'm happy to do voluntary design work for friends and associates if the cause is something I feel strongly about. For me, this is often more important than receiving financial outcome if the recipient does not have funds.
As long as the terms of work are clear to both parties at the outset (i.e. what exactly will be produced, what quantity, an estimate of the time it will take, formats required, deadlines etc.) such work request needn't cause a problem.
Cheers, Rache
Quote them a price for two different looks with one revision at no charge.
Would not debate or defend my pricing.
I just went through this not more than 3 days ago. Well pretty close to it, at least. My sister-in-law just bought a new business and needed a website designed for her.
But here is the kicker, she needs it done in 3 weeks and doesn't have much of a budget. And just incase that doesn't make things crazy enough, she wants the ability to edit it on her own, but knows zero HTML. Now this is normally some thing I can do, the timeline makes it real hard to stay at a reasonable price. But since she is family and I am going to be cutting her a deal. My WIFE (no design experience and hadn't build a web page since the days of angelfire- if you are to young to know AngleFire, it might just be older than you.) decides that it will cost $500. So now I am on a crazy deadline and not going to make any money really, and I have to set it up so that my Sister-in-Law can edit it.
The final solution, I built the site as fast as I could and set it up for her to edit it using Adobe Contribute. That way she doesn't need to know HTML.
And beyond that I have decided no more working for family.
I have commented a couple of times to your blog Mike and none of them ever showed up.
I have commented a couple of times to your blog Mike and none of them ever showed up.
It says you have to approve them so I always figured you just didn't approve them.
Great Question...This has been my weakness..In order to survive..I've had to give away "good work" for almost next to nothing to friends and new customers who say the same thing..My answer now is to educate them and tell them that its their business..if they want something for free they will get what they pay for..otherwise I will be glad to discuss how my designs will improve their profits and generate a return on their investment.
The first rule of thumb is to NOT mix Business with family & friends. 7 times out of 10 it can lead to inner circle disruption.
What i mean by that is; while if something goes wrong with a regular client, you of course do everything you can to correct the situation & send them on their way (Not to hear from them again if deep down they still were not satisfied & just didn't say anything else)
Now, if the client is a family member or friend, you are of course inclined to first explain what you normally charge, then apply a discount to give them that warm fuzzy feeling inside. While going through the same processes as you would with a normal client, you start to notice add-on & upgrade requests that deviate from the original contract.
This is where the headache starts. They will get upset if you charge them more or if you refuse to do the extra work. So here you are applying more discounts on top of discounts to please them (Or even doing it free).
To make a long story short, at the end of the day when the project is complete, you now release all the files, pat them on the back, & wish them luck.
If you're lucky, they won't be swayed by onlookers negative comments about the work (As we all know beauty is in the eyes of the beholder & you get those that like it & those that don't). With a normal client, this is something that is accounted for and 1 reason no repeat business comes from them, we can live with that right?
However, with a family member or friend, if this happens, you know have a small amount of tension or resentment that you are going to have to deal with on a daily basis or every time you see them again (Thus the disruption of the inner circle).
My philosophy is to never mix Business with family affairs, you always end up cutting yourself short & chance damaging your after work hours comfort zone. Did I forget to mention all the after work hours questions you'll get from family & friends that know how to reach you at anytime night or day? lol lol
Just my thoughts on this. :)
I didn't enter a URL this time because I don't want this posted, I just thought I would drop you a personal line as to how disappointed I am after spending 25 minutes writing out a 13 paragraph post about your article & providing my input to the situation you stipulated 3 days ago for it not to show up at all. :(
It would be my guess that this is why nobody bothers to comment on articles here anymore!
Good luck to you
Hi there. This is such a common scenario. The first thing I do is tell them my hourly rate and also that if the job is as simple and easy as they say, how many hours I think it should take. I tell them exactly what I am prepared to give in return for their money and tell them that the easier they are to work for, the less they will pay.
Then when we have started work, I will give them an early warning when they approaching the amount that we discussed and this usually helps them to make decisions regarding how many revisions to do.
I also have a standard document, which I have spent a fair amount of time producing "How to write a design brief" (which can be downloaded from my site) and this gives potential clients a good idea of how much thought and work goes into designing. Depending on the client, I may give them the whole works or a watered down version of it.
They would have to be willing to trust my design. I think it would be hard for them to understand that the identity of their business (generally) is not that of their own personality. Most people do not speak design language and therefore do not understand it, so working with friends/family is difficult because they might love your work, but if you're doing work for them, they might want to be a little bit too involved in the process and really have no clue how to get from start to finish.
They would have to be willing to trust my design. I think it would be hard for them to understand that the identity of their business (generally) is not that of their own personality. Most people do not speak design language and therefore do not understand it, so working with friends/family is difficult because they might love your work, but if you're doing work for them, they might want to be a little bit too involved in the process and really have no clue how to get from start to finish.
This site is interesting, topical and I find it to be unbiased. I particulary like articles on rock past and present and some of the articles have been nostalgic.
Good job.
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